MACC officer Raymond Nion says the man he saw lying on a couch might have been sleeping, unconscious or dead
UPDATED
KUALA LUMPUR: Teoh Beng Hock might already have been dead when an officer saw him on a couch in the Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission (MACC) office on the morning of July 16, 2009, the royal commission investigating the death heard today.
Selangor MACC assistant enforcement officer Raymond Nion anak John Timban said he could not tell if the person he saw was sleeping, unconscious or dead.
According to earlier testimony, Raymond was probably the last person to see Teoh alive
Responding to questions from Bar Council lawyer Cheow Wee this morning, he said he could not even be sure the person he saw lying on the couch was in fact Teoh.
However, denied that his testimony about seeing Teoh was a “mere fabrication”.
“I put it to you that you were actually unsure whether it was Teoh,” said Cheow. “The area was dark and you could not actually be sure of the figure you saw.”
“More or less,” replied Raymond.
Raymond said he walked pass the couch at 6am and did not stop to scrutinise the features of the man who was lying down there with an arm over his forehead.
Cheow: Could you see whether his eyes were rolled up? You wouldn’t know whether he was asleep, fainted or even dead.
Raymond agreed with Cheow.
He testified earlier that he had seen Teoh briefly only once before, at 12am at a resting area for officers. He added that he had also seen a black and white photo of Teoh shown to him by Selangor MACC Head of Investigations Hairul Ilham Hamzah.
Cheow suggested that MACC had chosen Raymond as its best “time marker” because he was not directly involved in the investigations involving Teoh. But Raymond disagreed.
Cheow: So after you went back and discussed with other officers and your superiors, you’re suddenly so sure that it was Teoh you saw at the couch.
Raymond: Yes. More or less.
Cheow: In your statement given to the police, you said you returned to the office (after Teoh’s body was discovered) so that you could make sure if you had really seen the victim.
Raymond: Yes.
Cheow: I suggest to you that you did not know it was Teoh at all, and you merely saw a black and white photo of him previously and briefly saw his face.
Raymond: Mungkinlah (Maybe)
Cheow: You were more sure after you discussed with other officers.
Raymond: Yes.
Cheow: I suggest to you that you were relaxed after that, even playing computer games, because you already knew exactly what you wanted to say to the police.
Raymond: Yes.
Punched out for a minute
Cheow also grilled Raymond about his punch card, which indicated that he left the office at 6.04am and returned at 6.05am.
He explained that he punched in and out within a minute because he had to go to court and wanted to do so straightaway.
However, Cheow suggested that he did it to lend credence to his story about being the last to see Teoh.
When questioned by MACC’s lawyer, Muhammad Shafee Abdullah, Raymond said he had discussed Teoh with the investigating officers not to “create a story” but “just to make sure”.
When asked how he could tell that the Chinese person who was found dead was the same one he saw on the couch, Raymond said it was because Teoh was the youngest looking witness who was at the MACC on the night of July 15, 2009.
Teoh, who was political aide to Selangor executive councillor Ean Yong Hian Wah, was found dead the next morning on the fifth floor of Plaza Masalam in Shah Alam. He had been interrogated the night before by MACC officers at their office, located on the 14th floor of the same building.
On Jan 5 this year, coroner Azmil Muntapha Abas returned an open verdict after an inquest, ruling out both suicide and homicide.
Subsequently, the government caved in to public pressure and established the commission now sitting. It is investigating both the cause of Teoh’s death and MACC’s interrogation methods. The inquiry is scheduled to end on April 25.
Torture victim
Meanwhile, in the afternoon session, former MACC suspect and “torture victim” T Sivanesan was grilled by Shafee on his testimony.
Shafee requested that handcuffs be brought in and asked Sivanesan to demonstrate how he, with his large body size, could have switched his handcuffs from behind the back to the front.
When Sivanesan squatted on the floor and failed to loop his hands under his legs without separating his hands, Shafee asked why he could not do it.
“You must understand the cuffs that tied my hands together had long chains,” Sivanesan said.
He told the commission that the chains were about two feet long and were linked to the other handcuffs too.
Shafee also queried Sivanesan about a police report he had lodged against a superior in Kumpulan Semesta Sdn Bhd (KSSB) for intimidation, but the Sivanesan said he has been advised not to reveal information as the case was under investigation by the police as well as the MACC.
Sivanesan, 24, was a marketing officer with KSSB.
When questioned by the commissioners, Shafee said the issue was relevant.
“This witness is not only a witness for the inquest but a witness for an ongoing investigation against several Selangor state assemblymen and because KSSB made headlines for alleged corruption in sand mining. We want to know if Sivanesan got into KSSB as a reward?”
Commissioner T Selventhiranathan then asked Shafee: “Are you saying it was self-inflicted?”
Racial slurs
Earlier, Sivanesan recalled the alleged torture he suffered at the hands of the Selangor anti-graft officers.
He said that he was repeatedly assaulted when he was being forced to confess to an alleged bribery while in MACC custody between Sept 4 and 8, 2008, about 10 months before Teoh’s death.
During his detention, he alleged that several officers slapped and kicked him with an L-shaped metal rod wrapped in newspapers. His private parts were also caned.
He also claimed that he was handcuffed on both his hands and feet, ordered to strip to his undergarments, blindfolded and had woken up twice with a bag of ice in his underwear.
Sivanesan also claimed the officers also used racial slurs and expletives when they scolded him and also told him: “‘Say the truth or this place will be your hell.’”
He said MACC dropped his case six months later, citing insufficient evidence.
UPDATED
KUALA LUMPUR: Teoh Beng Hock might already have been dead when an officer saw him on a couch in the Malaysian Anti-Corruption Commission (MACC) office on the morning of July 16, 2009, the royal commission investigating the death heard today.Selangor MACC assistant enforcement officer Raymond Nion anak John Timban said he could not tell if the person he saw was sleeping, unconscious or dead.
According to earlier testimony, Raymond was probably the last person to see Teoh alive
Responding to questions from Bar Council lawyer Cheow Wee this morning, he said he could not even be sure the person he saw lying on the couch was in fact Teoh.
However, denied that his testimony about seeing Teoh was a “mere fabrication”.
“I put it to you that you were actually unsure whether it was Teoh,” said Cheow. “The area was dark and you could not actually be sure of the figure you saw.”
“More or less,” replied Raymond.
Raymond said he walked pass the couch at 6am and did not stop to scrutinise the features of the man who was lying down there with an arm over his forehead.
Cheow: Could you see whether his eyes were rolled up? You wouldn’t know whether he was asleep, fainted or even dead.
Raymond agreed with Cheow.
He testified earlier that he had seen Teoh briefly only once before, at 12am at a resting area for officers. He added that he had also seen a black and white photo of Teoh shown to him by Selangor MACC Head of Investigations Hairul Ilham Hamzah.
Cheow suggested that MACC had chosen Raymond as its best “time marker” because he was not directly involved in the investigations involving Teoh. But Raymond disagreed.
Cheow: So after you went back and discussed with other officers and your superiors, you’re suddenly so sure that it was Teoh you saw at the couch.
Raymond: Yes. More or less.
Cheow: In your statement given to the police, you said you returned to the office (after Teoh’s body was discovered) so that you could make sure if you had really seen the victim.
Raymond: Yes.
Cheow: I suggest to you that you did not know it was Teoh at all, and you merely saw a black and white photo of him previously and briefly saw his face.
Raymond: Mungkinlah (Maybe)
Cheow: You were more sure after you discussed with other officers.
Raymond: Yes.
Cheow: I suggest to you that you were relaxed after that, even playing computer games, because you already knew exactly what you wanted to say to the police.
Raymond: Yes.
Punched out for a minute
Cheow also grilled Raymond about his punch card, which indicated that he left the office at 6.04am and returned at 6.05am.
He explained that he punched in and out within a minute because he had to go to court and wanted to do so straightaway.
However, Cheow suggested that he did it to lend credence to his story about being the last to see Teoh.
When questioned by MACC’s lawyer, Muhammad Shafee Abdullah, Raymond said he had discussed Teoh with the investigating officers not to “create a story” but “just to make sure”.
When asked how he could tell that the Chinese person who was found dead was the same one he saw on the couch, Raymond said it was because Teoh was the youngest looking witness who was at the MACC on the night of July 15, 2009.
Teoh, who was political aide to Selangor executive councillor Ean Yong Hian Wah, was found dead the next morning on the fifth floor of Plaza Masalam in Shah Alam. He had been interrogated the night before by MACC officers at their office, located on the 14th floor of the same building.
On Jan 5 this year, coroner Azmil Muntapha Abas returned an open verdict after an inquest, ruling out both suicide and homicide.
Subsequently, the government caved in to public pressure and established the commission now sitting. It is investigating both the cause of Teoh’s death and MACC’s interrogation methods. The inquiry is scheduled to end on April 25.
Torture victim
Meanwhile, in the afternoon session, former MACC suspect and “torture victim” T Sivanesan was grilled by Shafee on his testimony.Shafee requested that handcuffs be brought in and asked Sivanesan to demonstrate how he, with his large body size, could have switched his handcuffs from behind the back to the front.
When Sivanesan squatted on the floor and failed to loop his hands under his legs without separating his hands, Shafee asked why he could not do it.
“You must understand the cuffs that tied my hands together had long chains,” Sivanesan said.
He told the commission that the chains were about two feet long and were linked to the other handcuffs too.
Shafee also queried Sivanesan about a police report he had lodged against a superior in Kumpulan Semesta Sdn Bhd (KSSB) for intimidation, but the Sivanesan said he has been advised not to reveal information as the case was under investigation by the police as well as the MACC.
Sivanesan, 24, was a marketing officer with KSSB.
When questioned by the commissioners, Shafee said the issue was relevant.
“This witness is not only a witness for the inquest but a witness for an ongoing investigation against several Selangor state assemblymen and because KSSB made headlines for alleged corruption in sand mining. We want to know if Sivanesan got into KSSB as a reward?”
Commissioner T Selventhiranathan then asked Shafee: “Are you saying it was self-inflicted?”
Racial slurs
Earlier, Sivanesan recalled the alleged torture he suffered at the hands of the Selangor anti-graft officers.
He said that he was repeatedly assaulted when he was being forced to confess to an alleged bribery while in MACC custody between Sept 4 and 8, 2008, about 10 months before Teoh’s death.
During his detention, he alleged that several officers slapped and kicked him with an L-shaped metal rod wrapped in newspapers. His private parts were also caned.
He also claimed that he was handcuffed on both his hands and feet, ordered to strip to his undergarments, blindfolded and had woken up twice with a bag of ice in his underwear.
Sivanesan also claimed the officers also used racial slurs and expletives when they scolded him and also told him: “‘Say the truth or this place will be your hell.’”
He said MACC dropped his case six months later, citing insufficient evidence.
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